Anyone used "Trevor Baylis Brands plc" to get an idea to market?

[Penny Armitage]

Being in that all-too typical situation of having a good idea but being
daunted by the obstacle course of getting it to market, I was interested
to read about Trevor Baylis Brands plc - a company that helps inventors
do just that.

Have any of you had experience (good or bad) of this company? I'm
interested to read any independent comments about them before committing
money and the idea (under a NDA of course) to them.

[Rodney]

Post by Penny Armitage
Being in that all-too typical situation of having a good idea but being
daunted by the obstacle course of getting it to market, I was interested
to read about Trevor Baylis Brands plc - a company that helps inventors
do just that.

A web site would help us, where we can look at how they operate

Post by Penny Armitage
Have any of you had experience (good or bad) of this company? I'm
interested to read any independent comments about them before committing
money and the idea (under a NDA of course) to them.

Penny, these companies come, and go after the heat gets too hot for
them, change their names and come out again.

What you MUST DEMAND from them is a list of inventions they got on the
market for inventors,, you want the actually names of the actual
products they have succeeded in marketing, if they give you ANY excuse
on why they can not give you those list,, then they are lying to you,,
there is no list, and they are a scam company. ANy honest company will
gladly give you a list of their successes,, look up "toy agents" and you
will see the list of toys they have placed on the market for independent
inventors

Now you want the number of people they have taken money from, to market
their inventions/ideas

Then you want to know if any of the people involved in this company has
ever been involved with another invention SCAM company.

I have never seen a company do this, that makes you pay them up front,
and they don't make all or most of their money off the backs of failed
inventors, and their inventions. Most don't even have a clue about
marketing inventions,, but they are great at marketing their worthless
services, to naive inventors. They lie, they scam, they tell you
everything you want to hear, about how good your invention is.

Let's look at Invent Tech

Last I heard, they have never made an inventor a dime over what they
inventor paid them, there own numbers are ZERO !, and they have taken
millions in fees from inventors, and spend millions on TV ads, marketing
their services to inventors, too bad they don't spend that money
marketing inventions

LAst I heard on ISC was they made 1 inventor in over 300 that paid them
thousands, 10 cents, more than they paid them.

Let me tell you the real truth,, it's not that hard to license your own
invention/s, if you have one that the manufacturers want, it actually
real easy,, I did 7 in a single year. The real hard part of all this is
coming up with inventions that manufacturers want, it's not in marketing
that invention/s

You can do it without spending any real money, I did mine using emails,
fax, and the phone

I will be glad to talk to you on the phone about all this,, if your in
the US I will even pay for the call, just send me an email with your
phone number, and when I can call you.. I will save you thousands of
dollars,, I hate to see anyone get ripped off

[Tim Jackson]

Rodney wrote on Sat, 21 Aug 2004 17:39:22 -0500....

Post by Rodney

Post by Penny Armitage
Being in that all-too typical situation of having a good idea but being
daunted by the obstacle course of getting it to market, I was interested
to read about Trevor Baylis Brands plc - a company that helps inventors
do just that.

A web site would help us, where we can look at how they operate

http://www.thetbf.org
http://www.baylisbrands.com

I've no personal experience about how successful Baylis Brands is at
obtaining exploitation of inventions. I don't think it's been going
all that long so it probably doesn't have a huge track record.
However, what they have to say themselves is at
http://tbf.websfor.org/tbb/product/product.asp

[I've snipped Rodney's warnings about scam invention promotion firms.]

Trevor Baylis himself is an extremely well-known inventor in the UK.
Yes, there are a number of scam operations of the type Rodney has
talked about, but I'd be *very* surprised if TB would lend his name to
one of them. In fact he has spoken out against them in the past.
(Furthermore, reproducing Government advice about how to avoid
being scammed is hardly what you'd expect from a scam operation - see
http://tbf.websfor.org/thetbf/foundation/helpful_hints.asp)

However, I don't think you can expect to just hand an invention over
to *any* company and hope that they will do all the work of getting it
to the market. However much they may help and guide you, you will
still have a lot of hard work to do.

Before you go further, I suggest you read up on what is involved.
NESTA's Inventors Handbook is free on the web, very readable, and has
lots of good advice.
http://www.nesta.org.uk/howtoapply/inventorshandbook/ii_handbook1.html

You could also look at inventors' organisations such as Ideas21.
http://www.ideas21.co.uk/

The authors of NESTA's handbook also sell a book of their own.
http://www.abettermousetrap.co.uk/ . I've not read it, but having
read their previous book (which is no longer available) I would expect
the present one to be worth reading too.

I note that http://www.abettermousetrap.co.uk now also offers an
invention assessment service (but not any further development or
marketing). Again I can't speak for it, but it looks to be going
about it the right way. E.g. there's a clear warning that you might
not like what they tell you (whereas a scam operation tells everyone
that their idea is the best thing since sliced bread, no matter how
terrible it is).

More Government guidance on scam operations is here:
http://www.dti.gov.uk/ccp/scams/page6.htm#invent

Finally, you may find a few more useful links on my own site:
http://www.patent.freeserve.co.uk/serious.html

Good luck!

[Rodney]

Post by Tim Jackson
(Furthermore, reproducing Government advice about how to avoid
being scammed is hardly what you'd expect from a scam operation - see
http://tbf.websfor.org/thetbf/foundation/helpful_hints.asp)

WE have some scam companies over here that do warn you about all the
"other" scam companies

If this guy is "trying" to market other's inventions for the first time,
and charging them "up front" fees "over" a nominal evaluation fee (this
is needed to keep people from just flooding you with their ideas) I
would still stay away from them.

If he is turning down 95% +, of those ideas submitted to him and just
charging a very nominal fee, he may be trying to do people right,, but
like I said, the "right" inventions are easy to market anyway, why pay
someone else to do it ?

[Rodney]

This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.

[Penny Armitage]

Post by Rodney
From this guy's web site

We have now looked in detail at over 200 ideas and I'm pleased to say

that we have made commercial agreements with over 60 of the inventors of
those ideas. We're in discussions with over 20 potential routes to
market for those inventions.

Our novel approach of finding the right route-to-market for

inventor's ideas so that they can realise the value of their
intellectual property is proving very popular.

The response we've had has been tremendous, not only from Inventors,

but from manufacturers looking for new products. This has convinced us
that we need to expand our services. We've decided to raise the funds by
making a public offering for shares in Baylis Brands.

We have engaged Capital Index Group to handle the offer. You can find
So whatever your idea is, we can probably help. Please have a look at

our Inventor Pack and get in touch with us.
Sorry Tim,, but there is no way I could recommend this guy
For one he has licensed NONE of the other people's inventions
ANd he say he can help regardless of what the idea you have is
SOrry but that is BULL SHIT, Most Ideas are totally worthless
I noticed on his other site where he claims he has helped 200 inventors,
then here that is his evaluation number,, I guess he considers helping
even when he tells them their invention is worthless :-)
His evaluation fee is about right, but his contract numbers are REAL
HIGH, he does not mention anywhere what his contract cost ? he could
just be charging a percentage of the profits, or it could be in the
thousands.

I asked that on the phone. She said their agreements are on the basis
that they take a percentage of royalties. I said "What percentage?". She
said not more than 30%.

She also said that the initial assessment, which includes a patent
search by their patent attorney and "evaluating the idea to assess its
market potential", costs them £500 but they only charge the inventor
£100 - they aim to recover this loss by their % of profits when the idea
takes off.

Post by Rodney
WHat is the biggest turn off is the ZERO success rate, the number 20 is
really meaningless I mean

20 potential routes to market for those inventions.

I've been trying to find out about their "successes" listed on
http://www.tbf.websfor.org/tbb/product/product.asp

The Pond Governor has a website
http://www.ualproducts.com/html/pondgov.htm - looks quite impressive.
The "stockists" list consists of two phone numbers in Sittingbourne
(Kent) - obviously an area for future development. It looks to me as if
this enterprise is going it alone.

The Oscilight also has a website http://www.oscilight.com/ but he is
going to try to manufacture and market it himself.

I suppose that "going it alone" could be described as a "potential route
to market"?

I can't find any of the other inventions in TBB's list on the web - but
that's not surprising if they are still embryonic ideas.

Post by Rodney
Heck I have that in every invention of my own when I first start looking
to license it,, all 20 could turn it down,, and only 20 in 60 inventions ?
Let this guy get some successes, then maybe
At least he does not try to hide the numbers, maybe he is at least
"trying" to market the inventions, some of the scammers don't even try
This still does not make contacting with him a smart thing to do

[Rodney]

Post by Penny Armitage
I asked that on the phone. She said their agreements are on the basis
that they take a percentage of royalties. I said "What percentage?". She
said not more than 30%.

Is this the "total amount" nothing else ?????????

Post by Penny Armitage
She also said that the initial assessment, which includes a patent
search by their patent attorney and "evaluating the idea to assess its
market potential", costs them £500 but they only charge the inventor
£100 - they aim to recover this loss by their % of profits when the idea
takes off.

They will go broke in 3 years,, they have already "LOST" 80,000 pounds

Post by Penny Armitage

Post by Rodney
WHat is the biggest turn off is the ZERO success rate, the number 20
is really meaningless I mean

20 potential routes to market for those inventions.

I've been trying to find out about their "successes" listed on
http://www.tbf.websfor.org/tbb/product/product.asp

He gave the numbers, 200 inventors/inventions, 60 he signed contracts
on, and 20 they are actively working on "potential" licensees

Post by Penny Armitage
The Pond Governor has a website
http://www.ualproducts.com/html/pondgov.htm - looks quite impressive.
The "stockists" list consists of two phone numbers in Sittingbourne
(Kent) - obviously an area for future development. It looks to me as if
this enterprise is going it alone.
The Oscilight also has a website http://www.oscilight.com/ but he is
going to try to manufacture and market it himself.

Is this company using the "Trevor Baylis" company ?

Email them and ask

Post by Penny Armitage
I suppose that "going it alone" could be described as a "potential route
to market"?
I can't find any of the other inventions in TBB's list on the web - but
that's not surprising if they are still embryonic ideas.

Another "Scam" is making a percentage even when the company has nothing
to do with marketing the invention,, they sign a bunch of contracts, and
do nothing, latter the inventor/s market their own invention in spite of
the company, then the company demands their percentage. I noticed on
their site, you can drop out, "Until" you have signed the contract, they
did not mention a "time limit" where you can go your own way, not owing
them, after they have failed to make you money. They may have this
clause somewhere, but they don't mention it

[Tim Jackson]

Rodney wrote on Sun, 22 Aug 2004 01:58:23 -0500....
[Re Trevor Baylis Brands]

Post by Rodney
He gave the numbers, 200 inventors/inventions, 60 he signed contracts
on, and 20 they are actively working on "potential" licensees

With one already in the shops at GBP 5.99, according to their website.

As I said, this is not huge evidence of a track record, and so I think
it should be approached with that in mind. Penny should have a good
look at the other resources I suggested, as well as this one.

However, neither is TBB typical of a scam operation. For a scam, the
corresponding figures would be:

- 200 inventions looked at (for a fee of rather more than GBP 100,
which is what TBB charges).

- 200 told that they were worth proceeding with (so it's worth asking
TBB for that figure. How many have they turned down at this stage,
bearing in mind that a significant number will be no-hopers that
*ought* to be turned down?)

- 60 then charged a huge further fee, many thousands of pounds, for
"marketing" work (since scammers have no intention of recouping their
upfront costs from downstream royalties, whatever they say. Worth
getting confirmation *in writing* that TBB don't charge this, but do
indeed rely on future royalties.)

- 0 actively worked on.

- 0 actually in the shops.

It would be worth talking to the chap who invented the one that's now
on sale, and also to some of the others that they're working on. TBB
ought to be willing to put you in touch; scammers will refuse to do
so. Ask them what their experience has been? How helpful did they
find TBB?

Penny, if you do ask more questions as suggested, it would be
interesting to all of us to hear the answers you get.

One point that Rodney missed, because he's in the USA. Trevor Baylis
does have an extremely high profile reputation as an inventor and
public figure in this country, that I'm sure he would want to
maintain. Fronting a scam operation is not consistent with that. So
if it *is* a scam, it would imply that he too has been taken in.
Given his experience, how likely is that?

[Rodney]

Post by Tim Jackson
Rodney wrote on Sun, 22 Aug 2004 01:58:23 -0500....
[Re Trevor Baylis Brands]

Post by Rodney
He gave the numbers, 200 inventors/inventions, 60 he signed contracts
on, and 20 they are actively working on "potential" licensees

With one already in the shops at GBP 5.99, according to their website.
As I said, this is not huge evidence of a track record, and so I think
it should be approached with that in mind. Penny should have a good
look at the other resources I suggested, as well as this one.
However, neither is TBB typical of a scam operation. For a scam, the
- 200 inventions looked at (for a fee of rather more than GBP 100,
which is what TBB charges).
- 200 told that they were worth proceeding with (so it's worth asking
TBB for that figure. How many have they turned down at this stage,
bearing in mind that a significant number will be no-hopers that
*ought* to be turned down?)

I hope this is not correct, that they looked at 200 and then offered to
help 200, as they felt all 200 were good ideas.

This number must be they looked at many more than 200

The 60 of 200 to sign a contract , is probably right, with a 30 percent
closure rate on the contracts

I'm not saying this company is a scam, not yet anyway, but I am saying
it is not a good investment, with only one invention in 60 that they are
trying to put on the market, to the point they have that one.

1 success in 200 is actually a worst percentage than inventors trying to
market their own inventions.

Many want to be inventors are looking for someone to take their idea and
make them rich.

This business does not work that way.

If your serious about inventing for a living,, you must learn your
market, and invent to that market, it takes a lot of time, and hard
work to learn a market, then you must have true inventor skills (get
better ideas than nearly every one else in that market)

[Tim Jackson]

Rodney wrote on Sun, 22 Aug 2004 09:13:41 -0500....

Post by Rodney
I hope this is not correct, that they looked at 200 and then offered to
help 200, as they felt all 200 were good ideas.

I didn't say that TBB said all 200 were good ideas. I said that would
be the figure for a scam, and that Penny should ask what the
corresponding figure is for TBB.

Post by Rodney
This number must be they looked at many more than 200

200 is what they say themselves. As I said earlier, I don't think
they've been going very long.

Post by Rodney
The 60 of 200 to sign a contract , is probably right, with a 30 percent
closure rate on the contracts

Scammers might only get a 30% closure rate, since they're asking for a
downpayment of several thousand pounds (or dollars) at this stage.

If TBB are doing it all on a percentage of royalties (after the
initial 100 pounds assessment fee) then I would expect a much higher
take-up rate on the ones they are prepared to run with. But I would
also expect that they would only be prepared to run with a small
proportion of the 200 inventions they assessed - even 30% might be on
the high side.

[Rodney]

Post by Tim Jackson
If TBB are doing it all on a percentage of royalties (after the
initial 100 pounds assessment fee)

We don't know this for a fact, it needs to be verified.

but I agree the 100 pounds does not sound like a scammer, especially if
they really do a proper patent search,, they will go broke because of so
few successes after a few years of just that.

Post by Tim Jackson
then I would expect a much higher
take-up rate on the ones they are prepared to run with. But I would
also expect that they would only be prepared to run with a small
proportion of the 200 inventions they assessed - even 30% might be on
the high side.

It would be very much on the high side.

I'm thinking hard about becoming a sporting goods inventor's agent.
Since I have the inside track to that industry. I have looked at over
two hundred sporting goods inventions from other inventors over the pass
few years, and out of all those, I would have tried to market two of
them. The rest just did not look to me as being licensable, Although I
could be wrong, I never have been so far, as no invention I gave the
thumbs down to, has been licensed "yet" , I hope I am wrong on some of
them. Heck I would like to see everyone succeed.

[James White]

Penny Armitage
I asked that on the phone. She said their agreements are on the basis
that they take a percentage of royalties. I said "What percentage?". She
said not more than 30%.

This is a very low maximum percentage (though it is higher than many
scammers in the US offer as their minimum if the sucker coughs up the bigger
up-front fee) and would only be practical if Trevor were cream
skimming----something that 60 offers in 200 inventions doesn't square with.

She also said that the initial assessment, which includes a patent
search by their patent attorney and "evaluating the idea to assess its
market potential", costs them £500 but they only charge the inventor
£100 - they aim to recover this loss by their % of profits when the idea
takes off.

The £500 can only be the typical cost of any invention that passes all early
hurdles and gets the most thorough review. The vast majority of "inventions"
probably cost less than £20 and certainly less than £50 to research due to
VERY EASILY turned up prior art---often already on the market. My experience
is that it takes me less than 5 minutes 80% of the time to find prior art
that SHOULD clue the "inventor" that proceeding is a bad business decision.
I would be really surprised if Trevor is really expending £500 on every
submission or even incurring a **real** cost in attorney patent searches.
Ask the lady to put her statement in writing signed by a firm principal and
see just what you get.

And Rodney's correct in that many of the scammers these days cry "don't fall
for a scam" in loud letters on their web sites and print materials then give
reasonable (to ignorant neophytes) rationales about what constitutes a
"scam."

I wish you the best of luck but before you spend even £100 I strongly
encourage you to read through my web sites and take many of the recommended
actions.

--

James E. White
Inventor, Marketer, and Author of "Will It Sell? How to Determine If
Your Invention Is Profitably Marketable (Before Wasting Money on a
Patent)" Info Sites: www.willitsell.com www.inventorhome.com,
www.idearights.com www.taletyano.com www.booksforinventors.com
[Follow sig link for email address. Replies go to spam bit-bucket]

[Tim Jackson]

James White wrote on Sun, 22 Aug 2004 15:50:16 GMT....

Post by James White
I wish you the best of luck but before you spend even £100 I strongly
encourage you to read through my web sites and take many of the recommended
actions.

Actually, since his websites are mainly based on the situation in the
USA, and on US practices and laws (with a few provisos thrown in about
how other countries differ) I suggest that a UK-based inventor could
probably do better elsewhere (unless the US was their major interest).

[Rodney]

This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.

[PBallou]

Hello to another Penelope.....

I wouldn't worry about Trevor...you should however learn what 30% is a percent
of and how long his contract is for. It seems awful high to me but if you have
software or a medical invention - it may not be. I advise inventors to take
contracts to a patent solicitor before signing it. Or, send it to me and I'll
have one pick it apart for you, no charge.

I've also have several Senior Patent Examiner friends who may volunteer their
services if you need help or questions answered though Tim does a very good
job.

Did you have the patent office do a search for you yet? I ask because I did not
note any patents in the name you've given.

There are several not for profit inventor groups you should consider attending,
first. If you post your general location ( closest largest town) or contact me
offline I'll be happy to provide you any.

I am hopeful you have read a few books and become familiar with the data
available online at the British library and on the patent office website?

Let me ask you, is there a hang up in your creating a list of potential
licensees in round one? Have you tried yet? Or is it you do know where to look
or what to say?

Tootles

Penny :)